Who Else Has Questions About Their Health and Spiritual Journey?

[NeuroNixed Craig]

No, I don't. And I don't need a god, either. I've never heard a description or definition of 'god' that doesn't sound absurd after a moment's thought. The 'golden rule' and all its corollaries still apply, but that's because I value human civilization, not because some 'Book' says so...

I don't think anyone else should or shouldn't believe, but for me it's impossible and totally unnecessary. But I do get concerned when some use their faith as an excuse to deny reality...

These are some very specific and pertinent points to why I ask these questions. I cannot say you are wrong or right, yet you have a perspective worth considering. Your last sentence really sums up a hot button for me also and it is seen all too often. I cannot disagree with your previous statements, yet they cause be to ask the question MarkLavelle, is there any 'spiritual' aspect involved in how you deal with your disease which may be helpful to others or do you just "suck it up" as they say an continue on daily? I find much is revealed about your fundamental beliefs when you say, "I don't think anyone else should or shouldn't believe, but for me it's impossible and totally unnecessary." You respect other people while confirming yourself. It shows me you have wisdom and insight we all may derive value from hearing.

Jer and rdmc express different perspectives of application to dealing with their situations, a commonality with many respondents. I am learning from each person's insight and although appearing redundant there are twists and turns creating uniqueness in each. I don't know, maybe I'm an oar short in a row boat.

[502E79]

These are some very specific and pertinent points to why I ask these questions. I cannot say you are wrong or right, yet you have a perspective worth considering. Your last sentence really sums up a hot button for me also and it is seen all too often. I cannot disagree with your previous statements, yet they cause be to ask the question MarkLavelle, is there any 'spiritual' aspect involved in how you deal with your disease which may be helpful to others or do you just "suck it up" as they say an continue on daily? I find much is revealed about your fundamental beliefs when you say, "I don't think anyone else should or shouldn't believe, but for me it's impossible and totally unnecessary." You respect other people while confirming yourself. It shows me you have wisdom and insight we all may derive value from hearing.

Jer and rdmc express different perspectives of application to dealing with their situations, a commonality with many respondents. I am learning from each person's insight and although appearing redundant there are twists and turns creating uniqueness in each. I don't know, maybe I'm an oar short in a row boat.

Craig,

After reading your latest post responding to MarkLavelle, I found it necessary to visit your blog.

The blog questions posed by you;

...how should we feel going to church? What should we get out of the experience and how should we feel upon returning home? What is and how do we create that "connection" with God we hear so much about? Honestly, I would like to know...

countered with your latest;

...question MarkLavelle, is there any 'spiritual' aspect involved in how you deal with your disease which may be helpful to others or do you just "suck it up" as they say an continue on daily?

I see a man who may be impatient regarding his connection with God... asking a man who "... [faith / belief]...is impossible and totally unnecessary".... for spiritual counsel?

Shouldn't you, the author of that honest and insightful blog, be giving counsel to him?

Either way, I too, am interested in additional insight regarding out topic.

Jer

[MarkLavelle]

... is there any 'spiritual' aspect involved in how you deal with your disease which may be helpful to others or do you just "suck it up" as they say an continue on daily?

Suck it up, already!

I do think I inherited an extreme stoic streak from the German side of my family. I don't know exactly what you mean by 'spiritual', but I've been interested in Eastern philosophy since high school, and acceptance strikes me as one of the most important teachings (and not particularly Eastern).

I got to age 40 without really being tested, but then I had late stage lung cancer followed by a metastasis to the brain two years later. I don't think the experience 'changed' me much, but I did get to practice - and start to learn - genuine acceptance. I also found that mindfulness meditation can help with that, too.

BTW: Acceptance is sometimes seen as surrender, but I'm just talking about the 'things I can't change' part...

[MarkLavelle]

I see a man who may be impatient regarding his connection with God... asking a man who "... [faith / belief]...is impossible and totally unnecessary".... for spiritual counsel?

Shouldn't you, the author of that honest and insightful blog, be giving counsel to him?

You see what you choose to see. I have no "connection with God" because I do not recognize any god. How can I be impatient? And why should that be important to anyone else?

My respect for others' beliefs extends only as far as their respect for mine. Giving counsel when none is requested is the worst sort of rudeness, regardless of the topic, and from his posts I doubt Craig would go there.

I'm happy to engage in honest and open discussion, and I try to learn from everyone. You should try it...

[502E79]

Mark,

I ask you to reread and review what I wrote.

The man who I reference as "impatient" is Craig, and rightfully so.... Go to his blog and read why in his words.

"Giving counsel when none is requested..." ?

Craig, the original OP requested counsel in MHO when he posed the questions regarding our Creator and our connection to him. I gave him an honest response.

Were you were upset by my thought that Craig, an obviously spiritual person could better give direction to you who 'do not recognize any god.' ? I'm sorry if you are.

I apologize if you misread and believe me rude, that was certainly not my intent. Your non-belief in a deity is your right, your choice.

Now shall we both continue?

I can bow out of this thread but am also interested in what Craig thinks about your thought.... 'But I do get concerned when some use their faith as an excuse to deny reality..." and do have an opinion on this.

Jer

[NeuroNixed Craig]

Jer,

I know I have cognitive challenges so I had to go back and reread my own blog and the different posts on this thread to follow the concepts presented.

Impatient? That may be a tad of an understatement in my situation. I feel I may be a little late in posing these questions and seriously seeking the answers.

Yes Jer, I am asking many questions of people in hopes of gaining a better insight into my own situation through the experiences of others faced with chronic and serious illness. Addressing Mark allowed me a different perspective from one who has no belief in a deity or the Bible. This does not lesson the weight of his input in my opinion and I would not presume to give counsel when none is requested. I mean heck, I am obviously challenged in counseling myself on this situation.

Jer, you did indeed provide a very honest upfront response to my questions and I appreciate your insights very much. Mark has a different point of view and perspective, which I fully respect and appreciate his responding in this thread. Regarding the point of people using faith to deny reality would be worthy of an entire thread as I see it as a complex and situation specific concept. Not attempting to dodge the subject, I would rather not muddy the waters or lose sight of original intent and progress of this thread. Realizing, of course, I could have started out by wording the subject title in a much better form.

In light of the above, I do not desire you, Jer, or even Mark to leave the discussion. I too apologize should I have made anyone uncomfortable by asking these questions and yet they still chose to respond. Honestly, I don't believe that to be the case because I have received so much quality from everyone's participation in this thread and similar threads on other health forums. I have found this discovery very refreshing.

[502E79]

Thanks Craig, we are on the same page. Looking forward to the new thread.
Jer

[MarkLavelle]

Mark,

I ask you to reread and review what I wrote.

The man who I reference as "impatient" is Craig, and rightfully so.... Go to his blog and read why in his words.

"Giving counsel when none is requested..." ?
[...]
Were you were upset by my thought that Craig, an obviously spiritual person could better give direction to you who 'do not recognize any god.' ? I'm sorry if you are.

Jer,

My bad! I did read the 'impatient' comment as directed at me, but I can see now that's wrong.

I couldn't care less whether you think that Craig could or should give me direction, but I do believe that giving unsolicited advice is rude under any circumstances. I'm happy to see that Craig appears to agree, and I hope you do, too.

It's always difficult to have this kind of discussion without a little friction, but that's no reason to avoid them. Maybe I have an advantage being one of 7 siblings (I needed a thick skin!), but I think spirited (and polite) discussions are more interesting. In fact, my biggest beef with this forum is the hyper sensitivity of the moderators in their decisions to close threads...

Craig,

I think you're right about denial vs. belief -- it's a whole 'nother topic (maybe even a forum! )

[502E79]

We're good Mark!

No friction, just thinking out loud and that's ok.

"There are no dangerous thoughts; thinking itself is dangerous." —Hanna Arendt

Jer

[knuckle]

I don't believe in God because I don't see how any God could permit the suffering and death of children that goes on in this world.

Maybe someone could explain this without using the phrase "everything happens for a reason" which I have never understood.

Religious people seem so willing to resort the "miracles" yet have little to offer when a child dies.

[KateA2]

Atheist or perhaps Secular Humanist here

I've never been religious, felt that something was missing, or yearned for the touch or umwelt within supernatural belief. The universe is pretty awe-inspiring all on its own.

Being ill didn't change this, in fact, I am rooting for science and human ingenuity all the time...and when I'm dead I'll return back to stardust (with all of you, and everything else in the end) which is pretty cool in my mind.

Mom was a lapsed Catholic, Dad is a lapsed Pentacostal (heh, was an interesting household growing up!) Both parents had advanced degrees in the hard sciences, which likely aided in their leaving organized religion.

People should be free to practice what they wish, but (and I know this is not PC) personally I think all religion is a form of mental hocus-pocus to avoid dealing with reality, which, as we all know, can sometimes be terribly hard to bear...or unfortunately as a means of control. I don't begrudge people their comforts, but I do not like the crusader mentality.

[BigA]

I almost weighed in on the debate and then realized it's stupid. Not Craig's question - just the other stuff.

[4boysmom]

I know I commented earlier, but I wanted to go back to Craig's initial question, "How should I feel about God and about going to church?"

No one should tell anyone how they should feel about God and about going to church. You can "invite" others though, to experience the joy and peace that is found in believing in God, and joy with going to church!

I realize it is a different experience for each and every one of us. I happen to belong to a religion that has about 70% of its members attending church EVERY week. And I had to laugh at that statistic because often (depending on your particular duties) it is more than once a week. It is a church of service and lay leaders. There are no paid clerical positions.

I find that it is easy to forget the struggles you have personally when you are caught up in helping someone else! I believe that was the example that Christ gave us while he dwelt on earth.

For those who think that organized religion is a bunch of junk, I'd say that statement is true in some instances, but not all! I would hope that some day those skeptics would get a chance to get a "glimmer" of the spirit that brings peace to the soul. You don't know what you're missing, until you've tasted it, so it is easy to judge us harshly!

Let me give an example. I had a dear friend that was so excited to be visiting in a town with a See's candy shop. She said she loved Tipperary bon bons, and that was the only place she could get it. She was fanatical about it! I on the other hand could care less, because I had not ever heard nor tasted one of these bon bons. I could not understand her fanaticism!

Well, as luck would have it, I got to try a Tipperary bon bon when we were on a trip together. And you know what? She was right! They were very, very good.

So what I'm saying is that religion and feeling the spirit is much the same. You could care less and be skeptical of something you've never had the opportunity to really taste! And since not all religions are created equal, sometimes you have to search a little to find the one that touches your soul, and lets you know it is right and its principles are true.

Sometimes illnesses such as MS, start us on that search. For many, they never get the "itch" to find deeper meaning to their existence. All I know is that I've seen too much beauty and marvel in this world to deny a divine creator who loves us so much!

And for those that point out the sorrow and heartache, I could give another discourse on opposition, and the need for that in our lives. In short, how can you truly know happiness until you've truly experienced sorrow? I believe opposition is how God teaches us.

I don't write these things to convince others. I am just answering Craig's question how I would if he were next to me!

[NeuroNixed Craig]

I don't believe in God because I don't see how any God could permit the suffering and death of children that goes on in this world.

Maybe someone could explain this without using the phrase "everything happens for a reason" which I have never understood.

Religious people seem so willing to resort the "miracles" yet have little to offer when a child dies.

knuckle, I've heard this same argument many times over the years to include from myself at one time. I do not propose to explain anything, rather share my personal answer for myself of this question.

It is not a matter of God 'letting' something bad happen as that is only one side of the equation. Believing it or not there is a war going on in the unseen world between good and evil with good things and bad things happening as a result. We are participants regardless of our own choice. The Chinese refer to it as the Ying and the Yang of life symbolized by the infinite engagement of two entities, one black and one white. One cannot exist without the other and each having its own ramifications within the Universe.

Oddly enough no one can 'explain' and answer your question. It will require your own search for the answer, thus the saying, "seek and ye shall find." One must seek in those areas and consult with those people most likely to add value to what you seek. One does not ask a homeless person how to become successful, as an example. At some point the answer will be revealed and how much of an answer is unknown at this point.

The cliche answers you've received to this point provide no value or benefit to what you really seek. Not unlike a computer, one must ask the right questions to receive the correct answers. The bottom line in my personal journey is we all must take on the personal responsibility to find the answers to such questions. It sounds like a simple question yet the answer is not easy to discover. That's the best I can do knuckle, as I'm just another person on a spiritual journey looking for answers myself. I wish you success in your search.

[NeuroNixed Craig]

KateA2, your response and perspective are appreciated bringing forth a different point of view. Based upon you rearing I can understand the foundation you received as an example which brings us to the key point I received out of your response and that is covered within your last paragraph. I believe in much of what you have stated regard the religious 'institutions' existing today. I personally refuse to participate in (PC) political correctness as it is divisive and exclusionary in its very core. I believe you answered the question concisely by stating, "People should be free to practice what they wish...." We each have our own spiritual journey taking our own path to reach our goals.

4boysmom, you cover a great many applicable points answering the question with very good examples presenting your points. I agree one should not tell anyone how they should feel about God and going to church, however, one might share their experiences to provide another perspective as is my goal. These many responses have done a great deal of benefit for me in reflecting on my personal situation in opening the doors for the consideration of how other people in our health situation are dealing with this subject.

You have successfully accomplished what you state in the last sentence was your objective in that, "I don't write these things to convince others. I am just answering Craig's question how I would if he were next to me!" I thank you for taking the time to present a well thought out response to such a challenging question and this is all I can ask of anybody.