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    #16
    Originally posted by jumpinjiminy View Post
    Why use the MRI lesion thing as the determining factor, when it's true they don't always show up, can heal and hide, and the MRIs we have today show fewer lesions than the 7T now used for research? ... And if that IS the determining factor for calling it MS, then why confuse everyone by saying it can be determined without an MRI because they don't always show up, can heal, disappear, hide, etc. ... Nobody has yet order a t-spine, but they're all basing their opinions on lack of brain lesions.
    MRI is used as the major criterion in MS basically because it's reliable the vast majority of the time. Up until the 2010 revision of the McDonald diagnostic criteria, that was about 95% of the time. The consensus is that, the longer a person goes without showing CNS lesions, the higher the probability that the condition isn’t MS.

    It’s true that lesions can heal and disappear and be small enough to fall between MRI slices. But in active disease, where new lesions are forming, the laws of probability (and randomness) dictate that they won’t always occur between slices. Eventually -- like a coin toss -- some of those lesions -- by chance alone -- are going to show up in a slice. At some point it becomes more suspicious if they don’t.

    That 5% rate of diagnosis without MRI findings isn’t proof of MS. It’s an assumption made in the absence of evidence that the condition is anything else. Plus, it's usually made in the presence of other supporting information, such as a positive LP and/or abnormal VEP. I don't know what percentage of people have been diagnosed with MS who have no imaging or lab findings to back it up, but it has to be notably less than 5%.

    It’s also true that the MRI machines in common aren't particularly sensitive to changes in gray matter. But MS doesn’t primarily affect gray matter. (The estimated ratio of white matter lesions to gray is 95:5). Myelin covers cell axons (white matter) not cell bodies (gray matter). The primary action of MS is to demyelinate axons. It isn’t reasonable to think that the damage (inflammatory or otherwise) in your brain is from MS but it’s in gray matter and just not showing up on MRI. It's also debatable whether there can be damage and symptoms affecting large areas of the body but all of the damage is microscopic.

    The 7T units haven't moved into widespread use yet because research hasn't shown there to be a major clinical/diagnostic advantage to using them. Even though they're picking up smaller lesions that the less-powerful units don't, diagnosing, say, 2% of MS cases earlier hasn't yet proved to be enough of an advantage to justify the cost or overcome some of the drawbacks of the technology.

    Another reason brain lesions are important in your case is that something needs to explain the long-lasting episodes of blurry vision. Every structure involved with vision and visual processing is contained inside the head. It isn’t reasonable to think that demyelination from MS is making your vision blurry on multiple occasions and for long periods of time yet leaving no evidence in your brain. It's also questionable that MS would cause long-lasting inflammation in your brain on multiple occasions but never cause demyelination. The lack of physical evidence of MS indicates that the cause probably isn't MS. It makes more sense that whatever’s causing the visual problems is something occurring inside the brain that doesn’t have the same modus operandi as MS.

    It also isn’t reasonable to think that MS is responsible for your blurry vision, yet all of the physical clues are going to be found outside your brain. The cause of your visual problems isn’t in your thoracic spinal cord.

    That comes back to the 5% who have been diagnosed with MS with clean MRIs -- or maybe the couple of percent who have been diagnosed with no specific objective evidence at all. Can someone have purple creeping crud if what they have isn't purple, creeping or cruddy? Can a person have multiple sclerosis if they don't have multiple scleroses?

    The revising panel for the McDonald diagnostic criteria aimed to eliminate the confusion about MS being diagnosed with questionable findings. The 2010 McDonald criteria closed the door to MS being diagnosed without MRI evidence of dissemination in time and space. There will be no more "confusing everyone" by saying it can be determined without an MRI. So it remains to be seen how many people will be diagnosed in the future with clean MRIs. But it's clear that those people will be diagnosed at the discretion of the doctors, outside the scope of the McDonald criteria.

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      #17
      Originally posted by MrsBones View Post

      The pattern of disease activity as 0485c10 explained ( except SPMS replaces "remissions", not "relapses" with "plateaus". There will be a period in which SPMS has progression, relapses and remissions, then relapses and remissions stop and there's only progression) is what you want to look at, not individual or a group of symptoms.

      .
      No think i meant relapse actually. i went round and round on this one in a past thread with Mrs. Bones who taught me much about PRMS(thank you for that, it was interesting) and i thought i was wrong every time she corrected me..(btw i no longer let my mother do that why would you think i would allow you to do that?)

      but the more i think about it, its just two different perspectiveas. her perspectiove of what relapse & remission is is from the perpsective of someone who has PRMS. progression going on with relaspses and mine is with just pure relapses. for a person with pure relapses, the relapse doesn't end until incomplete recovery happens. and then it goes into remission for a while.

      wih her PRMS perspective she considers a lack of progression as being "remission". with pure RRMS a lack of progression isn't in the equation. with pure RRMS its a batch process as opposed to a continuous process.

      btw Mrs Bones isn't it time you allow opinions other than you own. Just asking? Especially as you have never had an RR period as you explained in a previous thread, so you would not know that. PRMS means no period of RR first. So you had no experience with RR.
      xxxxxxxxxxx

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        #18
        Plateaus being when new baselines are established rather than with relapses , as is with RR. In SP its with plataues.
        xxxxxxxxxxx

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          #19
          Originally posted by 0485c10 View Post
          No think i meant relapse actually. i went round and round on this one in a past thread with Mrs. Bones who taught me much about PRMS(thank you for that, it was interesting) and i thought i was wrong every time she corrected me..(btw i no longer let my mother do that why would you think i would allow you to do that?)

          but the more i think about it, its just two different perspectiveas. her perspectiove of what relapse & remission is is from the perpsective of someone who has PRMS. progression going on with relaspses and mine is with just pure relapses. for a person with pure relapses, the relapse doesn't end until incomplete recovery happens. and then it goes into remission for a while.

          wih her PRMS perspective she considers a lack of progression as being "remission". with pure RRMS a lack of progression isn't in the equation. with pure RRMS its a batch process as opposed to a continuous process.

          btw Mrs Bones isn't it time you allow opinions other than you own. Just asking? Especially as you have never had an RR period as you explained in a previous thread, so you would not know that. PRMS means no period of RR first. So you had no experience with RR.
          Wow.... I thought this was an open forum, no one but mods allow or disallow anything here. If they choose to either edit or not approve my posts so be it. However, since I am expressing my opinions in a civil way and not getting personal, as well as discussing facts, I think my posts are ok. You may choose to add me to your ignore list so you don't have to see me.

          It is not a matter of perspective or opinion. No matter what kind of MS you're talking about a relapse is a relapse, remission is remission and progression is progression. You do not have to experience a type of MS to know the fundamentals of how it works. They are simple to understand.

          I'm not going to beat the dead horse of what we discussed in the thread you mentioned or what was discussed in this one. Suffice it to say that you still don't understand what I said despite the "ah-ha" posts we had at the end. I will say however that what you see as my perspective is incorrect, not to mention the "facts" of what you believe I'm saying.

          The perspective in question here is what you think I've said and believe. They color your ideas of what I think are facts.

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            #20
            Thanks to those of you who answered the original question. I got the information I was fishing for.
            I do not have MS. I have Whatchamacallit; and all of the symptoms are mirages.

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              #21
              Originally posted by jumpinjiminy View Post
              Thanks to those of you who answered the original question. I got the information I was fishing for.

              I'm so glad you received the information you were looking for.

              I am going to close this thread!

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