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    Originally posted by Marco View Post
    I do not live in fear or have anxiety over covid. Many thousands of more people will die, millions more infected, but that's all the more reason to be grateful for today and live in the present. Tomorrow is not guaranteed for anyone... with or without covid.
    Amen. I was making myself sick worrying about my elders. Not so much myself - I feel I have a very strong constitution and would probably be OK unless there is something diabolical we have not found out yet. My neurologist with all caveats says I - individually based on general health - run the same risk as just about everybody else.

    I manage the care of three elderly relatives, one more actively than the other two. They are probably the worst vectors I'm exposed to, given they have caregivers who have lots of contacts. They also don't use masks or social distance properly and let down their guard pretty easily. What can you do? I'd never want them to die alone, but it could happen.

    At the end of this - if we are alive when we can say it's the end - things will be better. What else should we spend our time thinking?

    I am also following guidelines.
    All the best, ~G

    Comment


      Originally posted by gargantua View Post

      At the end of this - if we are alive when we can say it's the end - things will be better. What else should we spend our time thinking?
      Last Sunday, on TV, I saw HHS Secretary Alex Azar warning that the “window was closing” on getting coronavirus under control in the US.

      As of this morning covid cases continue rising in 36 states, including 9 of our 10 most populous. I see and read more warnings about the possibility or probability of coronavirus “getting out of control”. Dr. Fauci, Dr. Gottlieb, other doctors from the CDC, and more doctors commenting have been ratcheting up descriptive and concerning language in interviews and articles. I do not buy the argument that these doctors are political partisans involved in some grand evil conspiracy so I take their warnings seriously. Of course, you are free to ignore them if you believe they are partisan, or if you are partisan.

      For those taking their warnings seriously, I pose a question or two…

      Should we begin thinking or preparing should the pandemic continue to roll throughout the US?

      Regarding coronavirus what does the phrase “out of control” mean to you, personally?


      For example, to me an “out of control” pandemic means not everyone needing advanced medical care will receive such because there may be no place within driving distance not already at capacity.

      To me, a pandemic becoming “out of control” means children will be pulled from school, if they have gone at all this fall. Lots of logistical implications here for parents and grandparents.

      But I’m interested in what implications of an “out of control” coronavirus pandemic has for you personally, if any?

      How about food storage? Last week I called big box stores that sell freezers locally and was told by each they had none. They all told me that freezers are sold the same day they arrive. Evidently, some people are anticipating disruptions in food distributions if conditions reach “out of control” in the pandemic.

      Whether disruptions are caused by hoarders, the prudent, the wise or the unwise during an “out of control” pandemic it won’t alter the harsh reality of not being available, whatever the item.

      Last February when I started this thread amid happy talk about the minimal threat from coronavirus I bought 200 face masks and multiple safety items. I built an enclosure on my 100 year-old mother’s front porch, stocking it with masks, gloves, sanitizer, wipes and disinfectant. She lives on her own and is does not allow ANYONE or anything into her home w/o using safety items. I gave away dozens and generally, face masks are now available, however, not n-95 masks, those are not available on Amazon or anyplace I am aware of.

      To me, the lesson is this, don’t expect to be able to get what you need if a pandemic gets out of control. If you don’t think ahead of time and prepare, you may go without, whatever it is you or your loved ones may need.

      One last point… each of us, when we have done our best, having done all we can, should rest and take comfort. When we have done the best we could, the results are not in our hands. It becomes the domain of God, providence, fate, or whatever you believe in.

      For me, doing the best I can is the path to rest, relaxation, and enjoying life.

      But again, the point of this post, if may I ask, what does “out of control” mean to you in practical terms, if anything?

      Comment


        Originally posted by Myoak View Post

        But again, the point of this post, if may I ask, what does “out of control” mean to you in practical terms, if anything?
        I trust replying to my own question is okay...

        If the pandemic becomes an out of control situation, to me that means disruptions, trying to anticipate what those might be and how best to mitigate them.

        Today, Dr. Fauci testified, “We are now having 40-plus thousand new cases a day,” Dr. Fauci said. “I would not be surprised if we go up to 100,000 a day if this does not turn around. And so I am very concerned.”

        To me, it appears the partisan divide in this country may increase the likelihood of Fauci's fear occurring. For example, today I reluctantly got my hair cut. The lady/owner of the salon allows only one customer in the shop and when he exits, the next one. She always wears a mask. I wore one also. However, she told me that many of her customers adamantly refuse to do so and she went on relating the usual things people say to justify not wearing a mask...

        Masks, hand-washing, social distancing are not perfect but most countries employing those simple, common sense tactics have decreased disease spread significantly while the US has not been nearly as successful, according to Dr. Fauci today.

        If a huge group of young people do not buy in, if a bunch of older people don't buy in, we are snowballing toward major disruptions caused by covid, IMO, and especially when flu season arrives. Many doctors say a covid - flu combination will cause severe illness many will struggle with.

        What to do? What practical measures can we take if we believe this pandemic may worsen?

        First, can we do something effective which does not cost money? Yes! The most important thing we can do is expand our support network. How? Reach out with the goal of supporting someone else. Make deliberate contacts. Think about it, target someone or several and contact them. Expanding our support network is probably the most effective, practical thing we can do. And, it costs so little in dollars.

        It may sound trite and I hate to even try but I believe I will attempt cutting my own hair if covid cases accelerate locally. It seems irresponsible for me to deliberately sit in a chair careless people have occupied. Even though when I got home I stripped in the garage and hit the shower, I still hated going for a haircut. Next time, if I feel less safe by increasing covid infections I will try the clippers myself; oh my!

        **Moderator's Note: some editing due to Guideline #11**
        Last edited by Seasha; 06-30-2020, 09:15 PM.

        Comment


          Living in New York State has been scary during this. I don't live in NYC but i am in an area that was really impacted by COVID and had high numbers. Today NYS seems more reassuring with handling it. In all honesty i am not a fan of our governor. I think he is on a power trip and he has signed so many executive orders the past four months that it is borderline dictatorship. However, wearing masks, reopening in phases (slowly) and social distancing has really decreased our numbers. We went from over 800 deaths a day to only 11 today. 11 in the entire NYS with 3 of them being from nursing home. It is shocking considering where we were not too long ago.
          I think if the US all abide by same rules and did the same thing we could get this under control. It sucks being locked down and so many events have been ruined. But we are seeing our decline in cases and deaths picking up which is reassuring.
          As much as i was against all this in the beginning, i truly believe that if we protect ourselves which in turns protect others, we can turn this around.
          I went from not going anywhere in public and refusing to see family for three months to feeling comfortable enough to enter a store for the first time last week. I was so anxious but i honestly felt safe. I wore a mask, used hand sanitizer when entering and leaving the store and used elbow to push open doors. It is also starting to feel like the new norm.
          Dx March 2018; possible first episode: August 2011
          Tysabri May 2018-June 2019, Mayzent July 2019

          Comment


            Originally posted by Jennaly16 View Post
            Living in New York State has been scary during this. I don't live in NYC but i am in an area that was really impacted by COVID and had high numbers. Today NYS seems more reassuring with handling it. In all honesty i am not a fan of our governor. I think he is on a power trip and he has signed so many executive orders the past four months that it is borderline dictatorship. However, wearing masks, reopening in phases (slowly) and social distancing has really decreased our numbers. We went from over 800 deaths a day to only 11 today. 11 in the entire NYS with 3 of them being from nursing home. It is shocking considering where we were not too long ago.
            I think if the US all abide by same rules and did the same thing we could get this under control. It sucks being locked down and so many events have been ruined. But we are seeing our decline in cases and deaths picking up which is reassuring.
            As much as i was against all this in the beginning, i truly believe that if we protect ourselves which in turns protect others, we can turn this around.
            I went from not going anywhere in public and refusing to see family for three months to feeling comfortable enough to enter a store for the first time last week. I was so anxious but i honestly felt safe. I wore a mask, used hand sanitizer when entering and leaving the store and used elbow to push open doors. It is also starting to feel like the new norm.
            Thank you so much for making your post! IMO, it is one of the best ever because you present clear evidence that the simple measures we all can use has dramatic impact on disease spread.

            No rational person can deny what has happened in New York and why it happened... covid cases have decreased because when people had responsible leadership and followed simple guidelines.

            No rational person can deny what is happening right now in other states... covid cases increasing because people lack responsible leadership and do not follow simple guidelines.

            Those two elements, responsible leadership and responsible personal behavior appear to be the difference between cities, states, or nations handling the pandemic successfully and those not.

            I trust we are learning but gosh, it is taking forever, it seems. The depletion of our national health and economy is concerning. Why is it taking the US so long to learn what has been made clearly apparent by New York in handling covid?

            Thank You again, Jennaly, for making one of the most important posts ever. As we learn from people like you, literally, lives will be saved and more will escape the clutches of this pandemic. I cannot thank you enough, Jennaly. God bless you and keep you!

            Comment


              Originally posted by Myoak View Post

              I trust we are learning but gosh, it is taking forever, it seems. The depletion of our national health and economy is concerning. Why is it taking the US so long to learn what has been made clearly apparent by New York in handling covid?

              Thank You again, Jennaly, for making one of the most important posts ever. As we learn from people like you, literally, lives will be saved and more will escape the clutches of this pandemic. I cannot thank you enough, Jennaly. God bless you and keep you!
              New York, as we all know, is a major financial center. Over the years Wall Street financial firms staffed with some of the brightest minds in the country have generated some of the best research available; their attention to detail goes far beyond what many realize. For example, analysts use satellites to view parking lots and count vehicles parked at various stores, WalMart, Best Buy, etc. in order to get a jump assessing how businesses are doing. No detail escapes attention.

              Another example, from years back is when I shared data about Tysabri with the lead doctor at a research facility because I wanted to discuss its implications. I had made hard copies and handed those to him. Literally, his jaw dropped. He said and I quote, "You have data doctors at this institute have not seen. Where did you get this?" I told him the truth, from a Wall Street research analyst tracking Biogen.

              The point is that Wall Street research analysts are not paid for willy-nilly nonsense; their research has legitimacy.

              Yesterday, here is what Goldman Sachs, one of the most prestigious firms on Wall Street published concerning wearing masks...

              National mask mandate could save US $1 trillion, Goldman Sachs says

              Wearing a mask is important to health and our economy.

              Comment


                Thank you Myoak. I'm not a Cuomo fan at all (like most of upstate NY) but he's been on TV daily delivering facts and taking this very serious. I think because of what he implemented it really helped NY get it under control. Other things he is doing during this is very concerning but at least it slowed this virus down (IMO). Even with all the rioting, looting and protests that have been on going for a month now, numbers continue to decline while testing increases so you can't argue that.
                He also opened up yesterday that anyone in the state that wants/needs to be tested can. Before it was for essential workers, those referred by physicians and then those going in for surgery. Now anyone can schedule an appt.
                I hope for all of the nation this ends soon. Too many lost their lives already!
                Dx March 2018; possible first episode: August 2011
                Tysabri May 2018-June 2019, Mayzent July 2019

                Comment


                  Some great points being made here. I believe I am one of those partisan individuals eluded to earlier.

                  Too many things just don't add up for me and I believe there are political maneuvers being made in the name of safety for the citizens. When I take into account all the things I see, my tiny brain has a hard time processing it all and believing the narrative being put out, to many inconsistencies.

                  As far as "out of control" I think we are well on our way to being there. Supply Chains have been disrupted and it will be a long time before they will recover. Items that were previously easily obtained are harder to get and more expensive. I am convinced it will get worse as we get closer to the first Tuesday in November and probably rapidly decline thereafter.

                  We have been stocking up on non-perishables and other things that we deem may be hard to come by. Protein powders, snack bars, can goods, kauphy and ammo.

                  There are other things to consider as well....how well do you know your neighbors? Can you count on them and are they preparing as well? If you are preparing accordingly, what will you say to the individuals that failed to prepare even when they had the means when they come looking for a hand out?

                  Expanding your social network is a great idea, and when it comes down to it you need to be able to add value to that network through labor, knowledge or resources.

                  Obviously, I wish Tinkerbell would fly over us all and sprinkle some fairy dust out that would make it all better but we are not in Never-Never Land. Best of luck to you all.
                  The future depends on what you do today.- Gandhi

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Boudreaux View Post

                    Obviously, I wish Tinkerbell would fly over us all and sprinkle some fairy dust out that would make it all better but we are not in Never-Never Land. Best of luck to you all.
                    Good plan. Let's hope for that.

                    Seriously, though. We just got back, yesterday, from a trip to Canada to visit my daughter's family. When we left on July 12, our county in Kansas had 16 confirmed cases and only one active case of COVID. When we returned, we had 42 confirmed cases and 19 active cases! Really?! Only 16 cases between March and July 12 (more than 3 months) and 26 more in less than 3 weeks?

                    Our governor has put a mandatory mask order, effective tomorrow. But, our legislature has limited her authority, so every county can decide, individually, if they want to follow it or not. So it doesn't have much teeth.

                    The province of Manitoba, Canada (the whole province, not just one individual county) had only 15 active cases altogether. Canada is taking a very serious approach to keeping their citizens safe. We had very strict quarantining requirements while we were there, 2 phone calls, multiple emails and one RCMP visit to check on us to be sure we were following guidelines.

                    We are now quarantining at home for another 14 days, following our international visit. Not quite as strict. We can go for walks (not around people) and drives by ourselves, etc. But no stores, meetings with others, etc. In Canada, we were not able to even leave the property.
                    ~ Faith
                    MSWorld Volunteer -- Moderator since JUN2012
                    (now a Mimibug)

                    Symptoms began in JAN02
                    - Dx with RRMS in OCT03, following 21 months of limbo, ruling out lots of other dx, and some "probable stroke" and "probable CNS" dx for awhile.
                    - In 2008, I was back in limbo briefly, then re-dx w/ MS: JUL08
                    .

                    - Betaseron NOV03-AUG08; Copaxone20 SEPT08-APR15; Copaxone40 APR15-present
                    - Began receiving SSDI / LTD NOV08. Not employed. I volunteer in my church and community.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Boudreaux View Post
                      Some great points being made here. I believe I am one of those partisan individuals eluded to earlier.

                      Too many things just don't add up for me and I believe there are political maneuvers being made in the name of safety for the citizens. When I take into account all the things I see, my tiny brain has a hard time processing it all and believing the narrative being put out, to many inconsistencies.

                      As far as "out of control" I think we are well on our way to being there. Supply Chains have been disrupted and it will be a long time before they will recover. Items that were previously easily obtained are harder to get and more expensive. I am convinced it will get worse as we get closer to the first Tuesday in November and probably rapidly decline thereafter.

                      We have been stocking up on non-perishables and other things that we deem may be hard to come by. Protein powders, snack bars, can goods, kauphy and ammo.

                      There are other things to consider as well....how well do you know your neighbors? Can you count on them and are they preparing as well? If you are preparing accordingly, what will you say to the individuals that failed to prepare even when they had the means when they come looking for a hand out?

                      Expanding your social network is a great idea, and when it comes down to it you need to be able to add value to that network through labor, knowledge or resources.

                      Obviously, I wish Tinkerbell would fly over us all and sprinkle some fairy dust out that would make it all better but we are not in Never-Never Land. Best of luck to you all.
                      I agree that political maneuvers are always being made and never more so than during an election year. That is another reason why data is a better guide than politics or ideology.

                      The question I posed previously, what does an 'out-of-control' pandemic mean in practical terms was intended to get people thinking about preparations they might deem wise should the pandemic worsen.

                      Data tells us whether the pandemic is getting better or worse. The Tinkerbell approach... thinking one happy thought and believing the pandemic will magically disappear has been promoted vigorously since February and continues to this day but the virus reflects no evidence in hard numbers of disappearing anytime soon. The percentage of positive tests is increasing in most states.

                      For example, the rate of positives in Kansas two weeks ago was 6.6%, yesterday's report showed 9.4% of those being tested were positive. I can understand why Mamabug is concerned, what rational person living there wouldn't be?

                      In New York, the positive rate was 1.0% two weeks ago and yesterday it was reported by Johns-Hopkins at 1.1%. Is New York doing something that Kansas isn't? It is a question worth answering. Real people are suffering and real people have died because of the virus.

                      Speculation the virus will rapidly abate after the election may or may not be correct; we won't know for months. But we don't have to wait for the election to abate the virus.

                      What we do know is that if we employ techniques which clearly worked to slow the spread of disease in New York, Canada, and in many other countries, so too, will it abate in areas presently having outbreaks like Florida, Texas, and Arizona that choose to ignore safe practices. It is my opinion and guess that internal politics in those states influenced choices more than data and science. But that is only my opinion, I could be wrong and often am.

                      But it does appear that when disease gets bad enough, choices change. In Texas and Arizona masks are now strongly advocated by nearly all leaders of every persuasion. However, Florida seems bent on staying the course. Wisdom is justified by her children; data in the next few weeks will show if Florida was correct, or not. Time will tell.

                      In any case, here we are and we must make the most of it by doing the best we can. Preparation is an important part of doing our best.

                      Just to be clear... the context of the phrase 'out-of-control' was regarding the virus, I didn't mean guns, ammo, or conflict of that nature.

                      Lastly, the Fox News link in my previous post got shot down, where I put in bold the title of the Goldman Sachs article "National mask mandate could save US $1 trillion, Goldman Sachs says". Not sure why the bold type got shot down, too, but whatever the reason, the article can be googled and read from many sources.

                      Overall, the moderators do an excellent job. This site would not exist w/o them. So, let me take this occasion to thank that group, again. Thank you!

                      Be safe and be well!

                      Comment


                        [QUOTE=Myoak;1526752]...Florida seems bent on staying the course. Wisdom is justified by her children; data in the next few weeks will show if Florida was correct, or not. Time will tell.

                        ...title of the Goldman Sachs article "National mask mandate could save US $1 trillion, Goldman Sachs says". [QUOTE]

                        Why is Florida, where new cases are skyrocketing, staying the course? In part, because the push is on in Florida and elsewhere for the public to accept the falsehood that COVID-19 is like the flu. That fallacy is put to rest by the following study published July 2, 2020 in JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association) providing peer-reviewed, verifiable, scientific data that COVID-19 is significantly more dangerous than seasonal flu.

                        Risk of Ischemic Stroke in Patients With Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) vs Patients With Influenza

                        https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2768098

                        “Results: Among 1916 patients with emergency department visits or hospitalizations with COVID-19, 31 had an acute ischemic stroke… In comparison, 3 of 1486 patients with influenza had an acute ischemic stroke.”

                        Coronavirus causes clotting in many patients, presenting health risks not only for stroke, but for heart damage, kidney damage, lung damage, thrombosis.

                        Coronavirus is much more deadly and dangerous than is the flu. We should all know that by now. Why some states and some people refuse to accept proven facts is not a failure of science.

                        Comment


                          No, COVID-19 Is Not Like The Flu—And We Have to Stop Comparing Them

                          https://thewell.northwell.edu/well-i...oronavirus-flu

                          What an infectious disease expert wants you to know about the two viruses.

                          “Comparing the current novel coronavirus to the flu is irresponsible and dangerous because it creates distrust in the professionals who are advising us to take this seriously. It suggests that we shouldn’t be careful and don’t need to take precautions; it encourages us to ignore recommendations to be prepared for something much worse.”

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Myoak View Post
                            ...It suggests that we shouldn’t be careful and don’t need to take precautions; it encourages us to ignore recommendations...

                            Hi Myoak,

                            Read your post of 7/08 and was going to respond.

                            I had read an article about cloth mask viral efficacy and thought the info (which conflicts with some of what we hear) might be of interest. I even spoke with a friend who is excellent in unbiased data collection, getting his opinion. But I will not add the link or repeat the findings....

                            Because of the line I highlighted above.

                            The choice to be willing to take precautions, to arrive at that choice by thoughtful concern for ourselves and our fellow man should be common sense. Our opinions often muddy the waters. Sadly, we all need to be heard when we should be willing to listen. In my opinion not being willing to listen is out of control.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by 502E79 View Post
                              Hi Myoak,

                              Read your post of 7/08 and was going to respond.

                              I had read an article about cloth mask viral efficacy and thought the info (which conflicts with some of what we hear) might be of interest. I even spoke with a friend who is excellent in unbiased data collection, getting his opinion. But I will not add the link or repeat the findings....

                              Because of the line I highlighted above.

                              The choice to be willing to take precautions, to arrive at that choice by thoughtful concern for ourselves and our fellow man should be common sense. Our opinions often muddy the waters. Sadly, we all need to be heard when we should be willing to listen. In my opinion not being willing to listen is out of control.
                              Thank you for your post. I understand what you are saying and wanted to expand upon it, if you don't mind.

                              Knowledge is still evolving about COVID-19. Occasionally, even published scientific articles have been retracted. For example,and I’m going to quote here… “Editor's Note (June 2 at 11:30 a.m.): A paper... has been retracted by the journal the Annals of Internal Medicine. The authors wrote that their statistical methods could not determine whether the findings were reliable, making the results of the small study "uninterpretable."

                              The study had found that surgical and cotton masks do not effectively contain viral droplets containing SARS-CoV-2. Subsequent research has suggested that face masks are an effective method for containing the spread of the virus, used along with staying six feet apart from other people.” End Quote

                              What small individual studies demonstrate is not always supported by larger, more comprehensive studies. For example, the meta-analysis below included 25,697 people in 214 separate studies. The data gathered found that distancing reduced disease spread, eye protection reduced disease spread and face masks reduced disease spread with N95 offering greater protection than cloth or disposables.

                              Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis

                              https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...142-9/fulltext

                              Personally, I have no problem believing technical data showing masks do not filter virus well, or at all.

                              Also, I have no problem believing a meta-analysis of over 200 studies involving 25k showing there is less disease transmission when people wear masks.

                              Knowledge is still evolving and we have to be open as new information becomes available. If we aren’t learning, we live in a bunker of what we thought was true but may not be, comfortable with our biases but unsure of the best route forward.

                              What is the best way forward? Learning through honest consideration of evidence.

                              In the US we repeatedly hear because we test more, we have more covid cases than other countries. Let's consider that carefully.

                              I just looked July 1 data comparing death rates from COVID-19 in Germany to the US. In the US we have 389 covid deaths per million population and Germany has 108 per million of population. I want to know, I want to learn what they are doing differently, if anything. Why? Because there is less suffering and death from covid in Germany.

                              Expanding upon that argument I compared Germany with the US because both have roughly the same level of health care and are more similar than many other countries.

                              I have some confidence but not a ton, in state to state comparisons within the US. Please allow me to expand. New York had its first wave in April but many southern states are only now in the midst of their first wave of this pandemic.

                              IMO, New York will have their second wave, and for two reasons at minimum, seasonality and travelers. Southern states may have a second wave also, but first must emerge from the first wave.

                              Southern states may continue with their ongoing first wave longer than NY, time will tell. Hopefully, some day we will be able to accurately compare disease spread in areas which mandate masks, practice social distance, open aspects of society and businesses carefully, and those which don’t.

                              But right now, for me, state by state comparisons are more problematic than country by country. The coronavirus is killed several times the number of people per million of population in the US (389) than in Germany (108). Why?

                              I believe it is the bunker problem talked about earlier, hunkering down weak interpretation of science but armed strong biases going out in society unprepared lacking capability of protecting our most vulnerable.

                              There is legitimate debate in the US on whether to even try and protect the vulnerable or protect the economy by conducting business as usual and let the virus run it's course. Some believe that is the best way to protect the vulnerable.

                              No one can say for sure how minimal or how awful the disease course will be, we just don't know, yet, but we are on course to find out and I truly pity health care professionals.

                              In any case, the debate of protecting the vulnerable vs protecting the economy does not need disinformation. Those deploying it as a strategy are doing great disservice to our nation.

                              Bottom line, technically speaking, smaller viruses can travel through larger openings in mask material. Practically speaking, we know wearing masks helps prevent viruses from spreading.

                              Technically speaking, a gill net can't catch small fish because a small fish can easily swim through. But the practical reality is many small fish get do get caught.

                              I am most interested in my best chance to escape further tragedy from this pandemic. I'm wearing a mask and following common sense practices until this crisis is past, no matter how long it takes.

                              Comment

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