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    Lyme disase vs MS

    What are symptoms and signs of Lyme disease?

    Lyme disease affects different areas of the body in varying degrees as it progresses. The site where the tick bites the body is where the bacteria enter through the skin. As the bacteria spread in the skin away from the initial tick bite, the infection causes an expanding reddish rash that is often associated with "flu-like" symptoms. Later, it can produce abnormalities in the joints, heart, and nervous system.

    Lyme disease is medically described in three phases as: (1) early localized disease with skin inflammation; (2) early disseminated disease with heart and nervous system involvement, including palsies and meningitis; and (3) late disease featuring motor and sensory nerve damage and brain inflammation as well as arthritis.

    In the early phase of the illness, within days to weeks of the tick bite, the skin around the bite develops an expanding ring of unraised redness. There may be an outer ring of brighter redness and a central area of clearing, leading to a "bull's-eye" appearance. This classic initial rash is called "erythema migrans" (formerly called erythema chronicum migrans). Patients often can't recall the tick bite (the ticks can be as small as the periods in this paragraph). Also, they may not have the identifying rash to signal the doctor. More than one in four patients never even develop a rash. The redness of the skin is often accompanied by generalized fatigue, muscle and joint stiffness, swollen lymph nodes ("swollen glands"), and headache, resembling symptoms of a virus infection.

    The redness resolves, without treatment, in about a month. Weeks to months after the initial redness of the skin the bacteria and their effects spread throughout the body. Subsequently, disease in the joints, heart, and nervous system can occur.

    The later phases of Lyme disease can affect the heart, causing inflammation of the heart muscle. This can result in abnormal heart rhythms and heart failure. The nervous system can develop facial muscle paralysis (Bell's palsy), abnormal sensation due to disease of peripheral nerves (peripheral neuropathy),numbness and tingling of limbs, meningitis, and forgetfulness or confusion. Arthritis, or inflammation in the joints, begins with swelling, stiffness, and pain. Some have pain without swelling. Usually, only one or a few joints become affected, most commonly the knees. The arthritis of Lyme disease can look like many other types of inflammatory arthritis and can become chronic.

    Lyme Encephalitis can look a lot like MS on an MRI, but is rare in the US because most people are treated before it gets to that point.

    Nevertheless, there may be patients with LE in the US who appear to have MS. The white matter MRI hyperintensities in Lyme disease tend to be smaller than would be typical in MS. It is also uncommon to have oligoclonal bands in the CSF of patients with Lyme disease while this is commonly seen in MS patients.

    If the Bb Lyme Index is positive in the CSF/serum comparison or if the CSF PCR is positive, then the diagnosis of Lyme encephalomyelitis is made.

    At times when a patient may have a positive serologic test for Lyme disease and a reasonable exposure history to a Lyme endemic area and a clinical and MRI profile typical of MS, physicians may consider a trial of IV antibiotic therapy to see if there is a resolution or improvement of the hyperintense lesions on the MRI scan.

    Patients may have MS and not Lyme. Patients may have MS and Lyme together by chance and the two are unrelated. Or patients may have Lyme and not MS.

    Sources: http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/psych/a...iry.asp?SI=569

    http://www.medicinenet.com/lyme_disease/page2.htm
    Disabled RN with MS for 14 years
    SPMS EDSS 7.5 Wheelchair (but a racing one)
    Tysabri

    #2
    Originally posted by 22cyclist View Post
    Lyme Encephalitis can look a lot like MS on an MRI, but is rare in the US because most people are treated before it gets to that point.
    Excellent point and I'm not really sold on the "chronic Lyme Disease" diagnosis. Where exactly is the criteria for chronic Lyme disease? I also can't find any credentialing process for those physicians that term themselves "Lyme Disease Specialists.

    Sadly I wonder if there aren't some diagnoses that get passed out like candy perhaps in an effort to pacify chronic pain patients.
    He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
    Anonymous

    Comment


      #3
      cyclist, thanks for the info on lyme.
      21 yrs ago i was dxd w/ lyme disease in the 3rd stage.

      had a very perceptive family doctor who when asked to refill my osteoarthritis meds (new dr./ new town). he asked all the right questions and tested me for lymes.

      bingo! explained some missing time in my days. quite scary, girls were 3 & 5. i remember at least once driving and totally forgetting where we were and how we got there.

      he backtracked it to late 70's when i was 16. lived in NJ, just an hr from Lyme, Conn. (where disease gets name from, due to the high cases of it there and finally figuring it out.)
      unfortunately for me, at that time Lyme was not a disease yet.
      after a week of hospital tests, they labeled it 'mono' tho 3 mono tests came back neg.
      my minister also had been tick bitten & was dxd w/ rocky mtn spotted fever. this was all after youth group spent a weekend at camp (out in woods, of course).

      i'm just thank God that this dr. realized it. 6 mos. of treatment, mostly antibiotics, 7 wks of pic line for mega doses 3x day. not fun! but i'm still here!!!

      i'm so thankful that it now is treated and caught so early with most people.
      though the connection between the 2 is odd. lots of MSrs formally had lyme disease.
      had a friend treated at the same time i was. he has been wc bound for yrs from MS now.

      funny (weird, not haha) how such a little thing, dot sized deer tick, can wreck such havoc on a person's life!

      if you ever think you might have been bitten by a tick and have lymes, which at first seems like the flu, get to a dr. quick. that early, usually a round of antibiotics knocks it right out.

      i love being outside and camping, but boy do i freak if i see a tick on me!!!

      take care everyone! be diligent about your health & may GOd bless ya!
      "All things are possible for those who believe." Jesus

      Comment


        #4
        Jules A you mock my pain. Lyme affects any system in a persons body. I can't begin to tell you the nightmare I have lived through these last four years. My productive life was cut short at 53. I was very healthy before this.

        Unfortunately there is much misinformation spread about Lyme. Lyme can kill and has and it most certainly is underdiagnosed. Even the CDC says it's documented cases are probably ten times higher than reported. How would you feel if, because MS was not understood, it was denied by the medical community and you were denied treatment and the doctors thought you were just faking it? There is new research constantly being added to the pool of knowledge every month. Do you remember just a short time ago when HIV was not understood and mocked? I hope you never get Lyme. I would not wish this on my worst enemy.

        Here is some valuable information by a research pathologists:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8tESJVvM88
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmvgOfIN_8c

        22cyclist
        "Lyme Encephalitis can look a lot like MS on an MRI, but is rare in the US because most people are treated before it gets to that point"
        This is completely untrue. The Western Blot and Elisa Test are only 30% accurate. It would be more accurate to flip a coin. The Western Blot itself was developed from only one strain of Lyme. There are 100 different strains of Lyme recognized in the United States and 300 different strains recognized worldwide. Furthermore, spirochaetes have been observed in vitro to be pleomorphic and prefer tissue over blood. Blood tests for antigens. However, they have been observed to develop a biofilm similar to the film used by a slug on the ground so that the immune system can't recognize them so as a result stops making antigens to them after the initial infection when they enter the blood.

        Furthermore, one of the markers for the immune system to attack a foreign invader is that all foreign organisms metabolize iron - except - spirochaetes. They evade the immune system further by metabolizing manganese instead--another reason why the antigen is often not found.


        Furthermore borellia burgdeferi is only [I]one[I]of the stealth pathogens that invades the body when a tick bites. There are other coinfections that are usually present such as Bartonella, Babesiosis, Protomxzoa, Erlichiosis, Mycoplasma, Tulremia, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Tick Paralysis, Q-Fever, Colorado Tick Fever, and the deadly Powassan Fever. Getting bit by a tic is like being injected with a dirty needle that has been sitting in the dirt and that has already injected other animals.

        Many people's lives have been ruined and many have died because they have been refused treatment based on faulty tests and misunderstanding of this emerging yet unrecognized chronic disease.

        Here is a memorial of those that have died.
        http://www.lymememorial.org/

        Make sure you have the facts before you marginalize people who are suffering.

        **URL removed by Moderator. This may be put in your Profile for all registered, logged-in members to see. Go to UserCP > Edit Details**


        http://pinterest.com/lndmay/lyme-disease-coinfections/

        Comment


          #5
          Here is one doctor that describes Chronic Lyme and teaches other doctors.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD1rJjwMBMs

          Comment


            #6
            Neurological involvement

            Lest you think that only small white matter hyperintensities appear on MRI, read this well referenced report in the Oxford Journals by J. Oski et al. Note the MRI on Page 4.

            http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cont.../2143.full.pdf

            Also, note the length of time of study and treatment that elapsed for each patient and the outcome...one dead.

            Comment


              #7
              You can view the registry of the dead at "The National Lyme Disease Memorial" on line.

              Let's not erase their memory or forget their suffering.

              Comment


                #8
                To gain a better understanding of Lyme disease and the debate surrounding it, view the movie, "Under Our Skin".

                Comment


                  #9
                  Back to topic

                  A Seroepidemic study. Ann Agric Environ Med. issue 7, 141-143

                  Synopsis:
                  10 out of 26 MS patients tested positive for Lyme borreliosis. Notes how it is virtually impossible to make a distinction between late stage Lyme disease and Multiple sclerosis, not even with MRI. Diagnosis of MS vs. late stage neuroborreliosis are guesswork – there are no reliable tests for either. Conclusion: Multiple sclerosis may often be associated with Borrelia infection.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Wow! Sheila, Thank you for adding all of this information! I am sorry I misrepresented the facts. I appreciate you correcting them! That is what this site is for. You are a great addition! How long have you had Lyme? I am sorry that you do. Was your mistaken for MS initially?

                    Take care
                    Lisa
                    Moderation Team
                    Disabled RN with MS for 14 years
                    SPMS EDSS 7.5 Wheelchair (but a racing one)
                    Tysabri

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thank you for the opportunity to speak here.

                      The doctors originally thought I perhaps had cancer. Then ALS. Then I was diagnosed with ataxia. Myasthenia Gravis was and is also a possibility. Then I was diagnosed with MS and possible concomitant MG and put on Betaseron and steroids. I have a 1/2 lesion on my brain and hyperintensity in my lateral ventricle along with virchow robin spaces and atrophy in my frontal lobes and cerebellum. I also had genetic testing done and it was determined that I had a gene mutation indicating a possible movement disorder. My neurologist began to question the diagnosis of MS and suggested think about Lyme.

                      As many people here in the MS community know, it is very frustrating not to have a diagnosis. When I was diagnosed with MS, as unsettling as that was, it was also a relief to know what I was dealing with. Having to start over in my quest to find a diagnosis was very discouraging.

                      Judging from symptoms and the fact that I had pulled a number of ticks from my body (with no erythma rash) I had Lyme for possibly four years before I hit late Lyme symptoms. It took 3 1/2 years from that point to get a diagnosis. I had had 9 tests for Lyme using the Western Blot and Elisa and a lumbar puncture. All were negative except the last one using a test using current criteria from IGENEX lab. They test blood bands that the CDC does not recognize, partially because it wasn't until after the CDC made it's rules for testing Lyme that further research was done identifying blood bands that are specific for Lyme. I found a doctor who is a member of the ILADS. This is an organization dedicated Lyme research with many professionals--doctors, research scientists and others who disagree with the CDC standards. Many of them have put their careers on the line to continue their work.

                      Because my diagnosis was so late, it has become entrenched in my brain, spine and peripheral nervous system. It is chronic Lyme, or more correctly chronic Lyme Complex, which involves other bacteria. I have been in treatment since February 2013--7 months. The AMA will only let doctors treat for 28 days but obviously, in light of current scientific evidence and living proof, that standard is based on outdated information.

                      I am out of the wheelchair now and without a cane. I can bathe and toilet myself now, but I am not cured. 'Cured' is when symptoms are gone for a period of months without antibiotics. Even then, symptoms often return when a persons immune system becomes taxed.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Shiela View Post
                        Jules A you mock my pain. Lyme affects any system in a persons body. I can't begin to tell you the nightmare I have lived through these last four years. My productive life was cut short at 53. I was very healthy before this.

                        Unfortunately there is much misinformation spread about Lyme. Lyme can kill and has and it most certainly is underdiagnosed. Even the CDC says it's documented cases are probably ten times higher than reported. How would you feel if, because MS was not understood, it was denied by the medical community and you were denied treatment and the doctors thought you were just faking it? There is new research constantly being added to the pool of knowledge every month. Do you remember just a short time ago when HIV was not understood and mocked? I hope you never get Lyme. I would not wish this on my worst enemy.

                        Make sure you have the facts before you marginalize people who are suffering.
                        I wasn't mocking or marginalizing anyone and found your diatribe both unnecessary and lacking in updated peer reviewed information.

                        You are correct in that things change and are updated all the time so if/when there becomes a diagnostic criteria and accepted treatment protocol I will take notice.

                        http://www.idsociety.org/Lyme_Review..._News_Release/
                        He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
                        Anonymous

                        Comment


                          #13
                          cyclist22
                          Quote:
                          "Lyme disease is medically described in three phases as: (1) early localized disease with skin inflammation; (2) early disseminated disease with heart and nervous system involvement, including palsies and meningitis; and (3) late disease featuring motor and sensory nerve damage and brain inflammation as well as arthritis."

                          I did not have skin inflammation (EM rash). #2 & #3 - yes. My GP thought I had ALS. My neuro diagnosed me with MS but later retracted when I quickly became an '8' on the EDSS (10 being dead). (That's his rating, not mine). I had started interferon β. Several doctors including this neuro questioned Lyme, repeatedly testing me with the Western Blot, Elisa and one lumbar puncture. All came back negative. I finally asked for a Lyme Panel from IGENEX. Band 41 came back positive for Lyme. Most doctors won't use IGENEX labs. However, Band 41 is the only band specific for Lyme. I had been to over 45 doctors who couldn't figure out what was wrong. Everything else had been ruled out. I was put on antibiotics for Lyme Boreliosis and Bartonella and it worked. I improved. BTW it took longer than the 28 days that the CDC is stuck on.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Wow, I am glad they figured it out, and I am glad we have you as an example of how things can be different than "textbook" as always. Seems you have been through a lot. Are you still on ABX or are you done with that for a while...or forever? Did they tell you this would be a chronic thing or what? Sorry if you said this earlier in the tread, I didn't read back.

                            Take care
                            Lisa
                            Moderation Team
                            Disabled RN with MS for 14 years
                            SPMS EDSS 7.5 Wheelchair (but a racing one)
                            Tysabri

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thanks. The affirmation is comforting. I very much want to see others able to maneuver through this dangerous and neglected disease.

                              It has been a very long haul and pretty scary at times. Still on abx but the goal is NOT forever. I read that 2 out of 7 with long term Lyme go into remission. Having had this approximately 6 1/2 years without treatment, it's already chronic. I've only been treated 7 months but already have seen a lot of changes. (I'm walking for one!) One neuro (I saw several) told me it's not unusual to have to be on abx for the same length of time one had Lyme before starting treatment. It's not a rule of thumb--it depends on what co-infections a person has and how bad their immune system is functioning and how compliant they are with treatment as anything else.

                              It affected my thyroid and I had to have surgery to have 1/2 taken out since it was pressing on my windpipe. It also affected my autonomic nervous system and made breathing an issue. (That was a big YIKES! but still no one had a clue, or didn't want to say. I'm convinced that some doctors are sympathetic but just don't want to get involved because of the controversy).

                              I was very fortunate to find a doctor that had a special interest in Lyme and was willing to continue his education--keeping up to date with current research (instead of policy) and had a specialty interest in Lyme.

                              Comment

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