"Depression" The chicken or the Egg Theory

[wally8]

Hi all, was just wandering what your thoughts were on depression and MS. It is said that depression is high with people that have MS. So I was wandering if the depession is a physical and or brain chemical result of MS or is it that people with MS have alot to be depressed about!

Thanks
Kathy

[Jules A]

Great question. My understanding is that in addition to all we with MS have to be emotionally depressed about there are also physiological brain alterations that can result in depression...double whammy I guess.

[Seasha]

In my opinion, it could possibly be both. Here is an interesting article about depression from NMSS:

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/abo...on/index.aspx#

[Sir-Voor]

Sadly for a lot of us, it is both.

What have figured out is that when feeling depressed, to ask myself “Is this chemical or reality making me feel this why?” Until you answer that, you can’t make a plan to correct it.
For me once I recognize it as chemical, it helps me calm down. But you should not fair asking you doctor for help.

Now when chemical eggs turn that normal reality chicken into an 18 foot mutant monster chicken, it makes it hard to tell to where one ends and the other starts. But again you should not fair asking you doctor for help.

[BigA]

I believe it is caused by the MS, but that our proclivity toward anxiety can help bring on MS. They work together.

It's also my contention that if you have anxiety, you are probably also depressed, but the anxiety is masking it.

[roo613]

For me, I would say physical/chemical as a result of MS. I dealt with depression for a while before I ever had an inkling of MS. So I couldn't have been depressed because of what I knew.

[Leah27]

I think about this a lot. I experienced a period of extreme anxiety about a year and a half before my physical symptoms of MS emerged and resulted in my diagnosis.

I thought it was a "new" job bringing on the anxiety. (I'd been there about 6 months) I often wonder if it may have been the start of MS.

I started Cymbalta for the anxiety and experienced "electric shock" feelings in my head. I thought it was a side effect of the drug- now I'm wondering if it was another sign of the MS. ( My main symptom when diagnosed was l'hermettes sign).

[journeyman]

Ret. Psych RN. *WARNING - Teaching session.

The theory in our field is:

First we know something is wrong but we don't know what it is.
- That is anxiety. Fear of the unknown.
- If anxiety is persistent then biochemical shifts in the brain and body begin to change to adapt and cope.
- Our emotions gang up on us with bushels of the "what ifs..."
- Then the dx comes and the emotions and "what ifs" become nearly unmanageable.
- Fear, Anger etc. and all the steps of grieving set in as we begin to wonder what life will be like now and it "...certainly will not be what I wanted or planned..."
- How will I explain this to others and my family.
- What will happen to my body, health, appearance etc be like.
- Will I have to be dependent on some one for all my human needs.

All of this becomes an unmanageable weight on us as the the mere human mind, body and spirit.
- The system becomes overwhelmed.
- The body's immune system decreases (because of the emotional status and because of the MS).
- The "Killer Cells" in the body also drop. They are the cops in your system.
- The system all begins to collapse.
- "Depression" then sets in.

I don't mean these to sound demeaning because it's just a process of self-protection gone wrong and at some time in life we will all suffer from it:
Woe is me.
There is no hope.
I am lost.
I am overwhelmed.
What next?
Nobody truly understands.
I need to just stay away from everybody.
My life is over as I know it.

All of these kind of thoughts are extremely damaging to the self and are a malignancy in the growth, development and growth of depression.

The best thing is to do is all you can do to counter these kind of thoughts. (OOOOhhh ! So easily said.)

Any body going through a significant change in life...
That is one of the many reasons I became an RN. ( And being a male RN in a generally female position way back when I went in caused me some depression.

I had to deal with what I felt was a calling being a Air Force Medic and EMT. I had to deal with a lot of the gender orientation comments over the very long haul and they took their toll. All the previous professions were ok to be a male but being an RN ? ). But my passion, love for my patients, my fascination with the human mind and body, my education and how I was able to help people gave me what I needed to keep plugging on.

I have been there many times in this life and it is easier to give this advice than to take it and apply it to self. The best thing is either counseling or talking truthfully to a trusted friend.

These are the very tools that health professionals use in the Cardiac unit, AIDS patients, patients with great physical disfigurement and loss of limbs or use of limbs - any major life change.

(Pitch for us here. We truly understand where you have come from, where you are and what you are feeling. No judgment here. Just,education, understanding and hope.)

I hope this explains the process of depression. Egg or chicken I still don't know.
Dave
"Journeyman" Tampa, FL

[tigergrl74]

Here's my take on this. MS is a life long disease. Once you have it you die with it, and typically you live about 30 to 40 years with the disease, if you are RRMS. A lot of other illnesses and diseases are terminal. You know that they are going to end at some point. And their progressions is somewhat known, so you can kind of know what to expect. But MS isn't like that, you may live 10 years, you may live 40. You may be able to walk for 20 years, or you may be like me and within a very short time of being diagnosed you can no longer walk.

For me the depression is the not knowing, the guessing game of waking up and discovering if I am able to get out of bed, let alone dress myself. It is the every day things this disease has taken from me, and the knowledge that it will continue to take things from me for decades to come, until finally it takes my dignity, my ability to swallow and to breath on my own. And then finally I will be released from it's clutches. But until then I live with this disease. It never leaves me and it never leaves my loved ones. It is always there.

[wally8]

Thanks for the replies
I think I just need to get a grip on my thought processes at the moment, they seem to be taking me to a dark place
As long as I have hope I think I will be fine, what worries me is if that hope is taken away. But I will cross that bridge when I come to it
Cheers
Kathy

[GandalfRA]

My Neuro told me is chemical. As I look back upon my life it makes 100% sense about what I felt when I did not knew I had MS and was "healthy" (no physical damage) but surely I had the MS.

[Thinkimjob]

They never really did work out which came first with those chickens and eggs, did they?
Right now, I'm in worse shape physically than I've ever been, but I'm not depressed.
Usually I get depressed when I have the energy to think about what might lie ahead too much.

[marti]

I absolutely LOVE this thread. I've been asking this same question of all my doctors, nurses and friends for awhile now. My last neuro appt (this past week) told me it is almost a physical symptom of MS and other illnesses. I have Graves Disease which is another terrible one and I really became anxious dealing with it. I also have IBS... another one that carries anxiety... and I have spondylosis in the spine... more anxiety. So what I got out of my last appt was that depression/anxiety is built in with our MS and other autoimmune diseases.

[2snowflakes]

I found this fascinating article. I hope it's okay to post it.

http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/art...articleid=1590

I have always been interested in depression/anxiety since I've suffered from both for over 20 years. They long preceded my MS diagnosis. It makes you wonder--did my brain already have lots of inflammation which caused depression thus opening the doorway for MS to take root also?

I find it interesting that I always see glutamate excess linked with MS and Neuromyelitis Optica. Now it seems glutamate excess also goes hand in hand with depression. Hmmm.....much food for thought here! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the connection that glutamate overload in the nervous system causes neurological malfunction. Why aren't they researching this more??

[marti]

What is the difference between depression and anxiety?